Rosemary: Hello and welcome back to Not Without My Sister, your favourite new podcast! Presented by me, Rosemary Mac Cabe . . .
Beatrice: . . . and me, Beatrice Mac Cabe.
[music plays]
Rosemary: Hello and welcome to Not Without My Sister, a podcast about sisterhood, friendship, relationships and all of the questions that we have about life, that are yet unanswered.
Beatrice: And none of the answers.
R: Yeah, we’ve absolutely none of the answers.
B: That was literally the conversation . . .
R: . . . and no intelligent questions.
B: That was the conversation we’ve been having all day. What is this about? What is life about? We have none of the answers, and yet we’re willing to talk about all of it with you and have none of the answers.
R: For an hour.
B: [laughs]
R: Yeah. [laughing]
B: And today we thought it would be great to talk about how we have none of the answers about body positivity. Or bodies.
R: Or body negativity.
B: Or bodies in general, right? Having grown up with bodies, I think we should probably be experts. We are experts . . . are we experts on our own bodies? Actually I’m entirely not an expert on my body, or anybody else’s body.
R: I was just about too ay, like, my body does at least 10 things a day that I’m like, what the – was that.
B: I agree.
R: TMI?
B: Your body does. [laughs] But I did think it was interesting today when we were talking. We were talking, earlier on, and discussing how I think that you have a very interesting perspective on this because you have obviously advocated for body positivity or bopo, right? For all the cool kids. And you’re a trainer, right? And you’ve been out there in the public eye and then you made the good point that I, also, have a different perspective because I worked in fashion for a long time. And I’ve definitely not been fashion’s idea of a fashionable body, right?
R: Yeah. But I mean, I think just to clarify my point wasn’t, you’ve worked in fashion and you don’t, quote-unquote fit, but I was more kind of saying, as a personal trainer I spent a lot of time saying to people, other people aren’t looking at your body, nobody cares what you look like, you know, your body needs to be functional more than it needs to be aesthetically pleasing. Whereas, in your industry, the absolute opposite of all of those statements would be true.
B: Yeah, that’s . . that’s totally true. I think I spent more time around people who spend a lot of time judging other people’s bodies, whether it’s for catwalks, it’s for photoshoots or it’s just for, like, pure negative bitchiness, to be honest. Just judgemental.
R: Casual, pass-remarkability.
B: Yeah. Just total judgementalness, but also, like, I started working 20 years . . . What age am I now, 32? So, 20 years ago, right?
R: [deep intake of breath]
B: I’m 41. Twenty years ago – and it wasn’t ever, like, this is fine, right? I totally think that the whole time that I was working, I registered every single one of these indignities as an unfair comment or an unjust comment or whatever, but it was not the same, I think, pressure etc, that’s happening now since just #MeToo and all of the, you know, unrest that’s happening at the moment. But there’s been a movement towards, in a weird way, even before #MeToo there was the movement towards, you know, body diversity etc. But, like, what does that really mean? And even if it’s diverse, does it actually . . . you know, do you feel more accepted? Do you feel more okay out there in the world, or do you just feel like, great! Other people are being accepted, therefore I’m okay. Does it make a difference to your actual life?
R: Yeah. Like, great that there are different types of beauty now, but most of them are still unattainable for the average person. I feel like it’s kind of when, like, fitness influencers got really big, and you know there were all these slogans like strong is the new skinny and, you know, fit is the new . . . x, or whatever. And I felt like it was just telling women another way that they should be? When actually for most of us we don’t have visible abs and we don’t . . . you know what I mean? All these different things that even when you see now, like I find it really difficult to see myself in body positive activists, or in fat activists, because I obviously . . . We all have completely different bodies. I happen to have certain rolls on my tummy that I’ve never seen represented. So I will see these beautiful plus-size women and I’ll kind of think, oh it’s well for them because they might be fat or they might be bigger than me but they still have really flat tummies, and they’re beautiful. They’re still this absolute . . . beauty ideal.
B: They’re still models, right? And I think – you know, as you were talking there, I was going, oh my God I remember how much you used to drive me mad when . . . It’s not just about, my body doesn’t fit this preconception of being a model, but it’s also about, like, I don’t necessarily have time and I know everybody’s gonna say that’s an excuse, you always have time, everybody has time, but I don’t necessarily have time to go and . . . All this stuff takes time. Everything is a choice, right? So it’s hard to prioritise, like, what are the things that you prioritise? I don’t . . . I want to look good but I also want to have a life, I want to do the things that I want to do. How do you do these things and how do you send a message to your kids that these things are important? And this time for yourself is important, but at the same time, it’s not overwhelming because I think living with my kids you even saw how this is . . . We never talk about bodies, or being fat, or being thin, we never – well, I mean, I think we never do? And even now I kind of question, do I? Do I sometimes, does it slip out and I don’t even notice? But I think you even saw from my kids, it doesn’t matter if you talk about it, they hear every word and they hear it at school, they hear it on TV, they hear it through every social media channel, right?
R: Yeah. I mean, I was even – I just walked into the living room where my boyfriend’s kids were watching Spongebob, and one of the characters was talking about how one of the other characters had loads of money or was very affluent and his daughter was really fat as a result. It was basically saying, ‘look at her, she’s huge!’ And I was like . . . even though these are obviously anthropomorphic characters, so nobody’s really expecting the whale to be skinny, quote-unquote, it’s still that kind of thing goes in with kids? It goes in so much when we don’t even realise it.
B: Yeah, but even take that TV show we watched, that extremely high-brow television show that was like . . . Magnolia, what was it called? Happy Magnolias?
R: Sweet Magnolias! As if you don’t remember!
B: I don’t remember! [laughing]
R: You literally said the name of it an hour ago, you’re trying to make yourself sound better now.
B: No, no! I thought I’d made up that name!
R: Your favourite new show!
B: It is! Well. It’s extremely religious, so that doesn’t exactly sit too well with me. I think, in episode one, she said God, Jesus and prayer about 14 times, and I was like, hmmm. Not sure about this, especially since I recommended it. But anyway, there are three main characters, one of whom is the, you know, white redhead, one of whom is the person of colour and one of whom is, as I referred to her and was super slagged by you, is the fat chef. But she is extremely – she is the fat chef! Right? You can tell they’re like, ‘Cast a fat chef!’ Right? RIGHT?!
R: Yes. Yeah. That’s definitely a trope, as in, in Gilmore Girls, which is a very similar show to this actually, in flavour. It’s quite wholesome – there’s not as much religion, but it’s small-town wholesome, there’s also a fat chef.
B: A hundred per cent!
R: I feel like it’s kind of an archetype.
B: But like in the car the other day when I said, ‘oh we were watching this TV show . . . and the fat chef . . .’ my son goes, ‘you shouldn’t say the word fat.’ I thought that was interesting, right? ‘You shouldn’t say fat, it’s a negative word.’ I thought it was interesting, your reaction to him.
R: Well, I always try to – and it’s kind of annoying, because I understand that they’re just kids and I also understand that a lot of the time when we talk about fat or thin, we don’t want our kids going into school and being like, ‘you’re fat’, to someone, do you know what I mean?
B: But I mean, they do though! We’ve heard them around the house, going, ‘fatso! Fatso!’ We hear them saying it.
R: Oh yeah, 100 percent.
B: We hear them saying it, as in, ‘you’re stupid and you’re fat!’ And I mean, maybe they are a little bit chubbier under lockdown? But this is not a thing, you know. And this is not something that they’ve learned here, as an insult. This is something that they know to be a negative thing that they can say to each other, you know?
R: Yeah. That it’s this pejorative term that is used in society and there’s no getting away from that. But I’m always . . . I would try, with the kids, with your kids and actually I had a similar conversation with one of Brandin’s kids yesterday, where I would try and go, you know, fat isn’t positive or negative. It’s just a description. Some people are fat and some people are thin, and then they’ll go, ‘But it’s not nice to call someone fat.’ And on the one hand I’m going, if someone describes me as a bit fat, that’s fine, I am a bit fat. But if they’re at school and they’re going, ‘You’re fat!’, you obviously don’t want them saying that to other people, so it’s such a difficult nuance to explain to kids as well.
B: But I thought it was funny when you were talking to Nash and you were like, ‘Hey, it’s just a description. If I’m fat, I’m fat. If they’re thin, they’re thin. They’re born that way or they live that way or whatever. It doesn’t cast aspersions on your character.’ And he goes, ‘mmm-hmm’, totally understanding, ‘But it’s still really negative.’ I thought that was interesting, right? So the takeaway is, he fundamentally understands but it’s still a weapon there to be used, you know?
R: I mean . . . Go on.
B: No, you go on. God, we’re so polite tonight. It’s not even normal.
R: It’s only cos we can’t see each other or roll our eyes at each other.
B: A hundred percent! If you were here I’d be entirely talking over you. Shut up! I don’t even care what you have to say. But I was going to say, I’ve entirely experienced this. I have, all my life, was fat. Have been fat. I mean, you were reminding me today that, at six months, as a baby, a memory I do not have, my mother brought me into the hospital and was chastised for having such a fat baby! [laughing] God love me!
R: She said she just brought you in for your six-month checkup, to the GP, and the GP took one look at you and said, ‘what are you feeding her?’
B: Yeah! This child is the weight of a two-year-old! So, I mean, honestly I genuinely . . . .
R: Mum was just breastfeeding. There was no food going into that gob.
B: Yeah! So you know what, this is not my fault! I’ve struggled with this my entire life! It’s not my fault, right?
R: You know what? That actually does make me . . . Cos like, whenever you’ve gone on a diet you go on such low-calorie diets, this now all makes sense to me. Literally no food going into your gob and you’re putting on weight.
B: Thank you Rosemary! It’s true, right?
R: It’s very unlucky, very unfortunate, in this world we live in.
B: Recently, I joined Noom. Noom dot com.
R: Oh my God! Disclaimer. NOT an advertiser. The way you said that.
B: Well, in case anyone was like, what is she saying! Noom dot com. N-O-O-M, not noon, Noom. I thought it was helpful but it was just another Weight Watchers. They’re all the same thing, right? I’ve been on every Weight Watchers in every country, as I think I’ve mentioned before, right? It was interesting right because it tells you how many calories . . . And it was only at the 850, 900-calorie, that I actually lost any weight. And this was me . . . Still being relatively active. I’m not going to pretend that I’m out there jogging. But doing . . . not lying down, flat on my back. I’d like to talk about the time Dad – you gave Dad the pedometer. Could you talk about that?
R: Oh, God. Do you remember when . . . It was probably 20 years ago now, when pedometers first came out.
B: It was not 20 years ago!
R: I think it was because I was only about 14 . . .
B: You’re making me feel really old.
R: I think you were still at home!
B: I was not at home! I was shocked abroad.
R: Fine! Listen, you were shocked abroad, it was 15 years ago.
B: That’s wine pouring. You’re welcome.
R: So pedometers had just come out and they were really being promoted by the health service as a way of measuring activity levels and making sure that you’re up to scratch. And the goal for each day was 10,000 steps. And I think I had taken it one day . . . And I think I had walked, it was when I worked in Stephens’ Green and I had walked from Heuston to Stephens’ Green and back that day, determinedly because I knew I was wearing this pedometer, so I was like, today’s gonna be a good day. And I only clocked up something like 8,000 steps, I was shocked! So I gave it to Dad the next day, going, ‘I wonder what Dad will do?’ Dad, at the time, was working in this steelmaking factory in Ballymount. He would get up every morning, drive to work, work there all day and drive home. When he took it home he had done 872 steps.
B: Excuse me, are you joking? I told everyone 87 steps. Are you joking?!
R: No, no. It was 872, Beatrice.
B: He did not do 872! He did 87 steps.
R: 87 steps would be from here to the bathroom!
B: That’s literally Dad! He got up out of his Lay-Z boy, he walked down the stairs . . .
R: He doesn’t sleep in his Lay-Z Boy! He got out of bed . . .
B: He likes to do the most loping steps he can to eliminate any excess energy . . .
R: He does! He likes to be very efficient. [laughing]
B: He then drove to the factory. He then got out, four steps between the factory and the door. He then got back in, four more steps, he stood around – he drank coffee, he potentially rotated in a circle two more steps . . . He got back in the van, he drove home . . .
R: He has to have gone to the toilet at least twice.
B: I literally told the whole world – and I have lied to people – 87 steps!
R: I am pretty sure it was 872.
B: EIGHTY SEVEN. I am so annoyed with you right now! [laughing]
R: The true point of this is, Beatrice, the daily aim was ten thousand!
B: I think doing 872’s not as bad as you seem to think it is! But you know what, therein potentially lies my problem.
R: [laughs] Yeah, that you’re like, 872 steps is grand! You should check your Health app right now and see how many steps you did today, although you don’t carry your iPhone around so it won’t be accurate. What I was wondering is, how would you say . . . if somebody asked you, like, honestly, how do you feel about your body today? Now? Age 41, what would you say?
B: I would say: you bitch! Do not bring up the fact that I’m 41 ever again!
R: [laughing]
B: I think it’s just really hard to separate, how do you feel . . . it’s not about, how do you feel about it today, right? How do I feel about it today is, I look at it today and I think about all the great things that it’s done et cetera like everyone’s said in every magazine, and then I go, couldn’t care less. That’s not what I think. Like, yes. Great. It’s done great things – genuinely. But I also . . . I still have this . . .
R: Are you basically – I just want to clarify – you’re just talking about your kids, right? Cos you’re acting like you’ve climbed Everest.
B: Oh my God. I have basically climbed the maternal Everest. I have four fucking kids, you bitch.
R: FOUR TIMES.
B: Yeah. I had natural births – oh, wait, no I didn’t, I watched sMothered and they’re not considered natural. I had an epidural every single time, as much as I could! Multiple epidurals because every single time my redheaded body absorbed every single bit of anaesthetic and I had to have it multiple times. So I’ve had eight epidurals and four kids. And yes, I feel like I’ve climbed the maternal Everest. AND the first time I had major infections and therefore was so in pain . . . Yes. You know what? TMI, we’ll talk about this again, but yes. I’ve climbed the maternal Everest and you’re welcome. But that’s not what I was talking about. I was about to go back to being a teenager and saying that I don’t think your self . . . In my own. I shouldn’t speak for everyone else. My own self-image is tied up, I think, less with how I have been in the last 20 years. Much more so with how I was in the first 20 years. Quite genuinely. And I actually wonder if most people are like this? And maybe they’re not . . . but I genuinely wonder . . .
R: Well, my therapist would say yes.
B: I really feel like, I have a lot of friends who were extremely skinny all their teenage and pre-teen and, you know those formative years? And who now could be, like, a lot heavier or a lot, like, bigger or, you know, and it’s not all about weight, but like, who just are not the people that they were back then – but who behave exactly like that.
R: Yeah! Who might be . . . Softer, who might be less fit, who might be less sporty . . .
B: But who still have that level of confidence! Their behaviour, their persona, is that 16-year-old. And I feel like I was totally fucked because I was such a non – in my mind, and in reality I would have to be fair – [laughing] I was not society’s idea of an attractive, or my idea . . . I was not an attractive 16-year-old, or 12-year-old, or eight-year-old, right? I’ve always been, like, extremely massively tall. Not now, obviously, like now you’re – everybody’s the same height, but like, back then . . . Super tall, the tallest person . . .
R: Everybody’s the same height?!
B: But you know what I mean, right? Everybody’s an adult height.
R: Oh, I know what you mean, I know what you mean. In school . . .
B: Yes, in primary school – thanks, Rosemary. Everybody’s the same height. [eyerolling]
R: I literally was like, oh my God she’s losing her mind. She thinks everyone averages out when they get older, what’s wrong with her? Like, she’s still taller than me, has she not noticed?
B: You are such a head wreck sister. Everybody’s the same height. They’re not! I’ll have you know, they’re not! Thanks. No – I . . .
R: What did I explain to you today?
B: Oh, everything. EVERYTHING. So many things, I can’t even.
R: . . . about the cicada!
B: Rosemary has a problem with, when I say, ‘What?!’ As in, what exclamation mark, you know, shocked voice, Rosemary goes, ‘oh, well let me explain to you – that means orange juice comes in a can.’ Like, no. No no, I understood that part. I’m more like, why. My question is why. Why didn’t you say why? Why didn’t you say why?
R: I don’t think this is my fault. I think this is from living with Mum for a year and literally when she says what, she means: “What?”
B: Don’t blame Mum. That’s really unfair. That’s very belittling of you.
R: Listen. I just wanted to say, when you were sixteen, you . . .
B: Mum. I love you. Mum? [laughs]
R: Hashtag favourite child! You may not have been an attractive . . .
B: Excuse me?
R: You may not have been considered an attractive 16-year-old girl . . .
B: Oh my God.
R: You just said this. But you would have been considered a relatively attractive red-headed male eighties singer by a small cohort of people in Germany, so don’t worry!
B: Actually! I so can’t even [laughing]. You’re lucky you’re not in the same room as me right now! ANYWAY. I would like to go back to, so – I was extremely tall, right? And Rosemary you have that picture that Dad sent you over recently, where Nash, who’s aged nine, goes, “is that Grampa’s brother?” No. That was me, aged 12. That was me aged 12.
R: No! [laughing] What he actually said first was . . .
B: WHAT.
R: You were 11, and what he said first was, “Is that Dad?” His Dad. Your husband.
B: Don’s never been that tall.
[cackling laughter from both]
B: Does he have to listen to this afterwards? Uh-oh. Sorry Don! Don, I love you. He’s gone. Anyway . . .
R: He may not be that tall but he’s an excellent sound engineer.
B: My God, he’s amazing! So talented and great sense of humour. Anyway. The whole point was . . . So, I mean, honestly to be fair to me, right, we recently watched an episode of sMothered which, if you haven’t watched it, probably don’t – like, it’s, it’s, what is it? TLC? It’s pretty bad.
R: I think it’s on Prime.
B: We keep watching it . . . Yeah but it’s a TLC TV show. We keep watching it, thinking, oh this is going to get better. It’s a reality TV show about mothers with extremely unhealthy relationships with their daughters or vice versa, and most of it is me going, oh I don’t think they mean that. It’s not that bad, it’s not that bad. But generally it is that bad, and actually it’s worse. Anyway one of them is like, I had a very difficult upbringing because I have an enzyme problem . . . was it an enzyme problem?
R: An enzyme surplus or an enzyme deficiency, I think so, yes.
B: She goes, ‘by the age of seven I looked like I was 17 and I was super tall’, and I was like, Oh! My God! This is literally me, and Mum never took me for tests and never twigged it! So then I asked Mum, I was like, Mum, how come you never actually went to get tests for me because I was so massive? And Mum goes, I brought you to the fat doctor!
R: [laughs] Not the doctor who was fat, to be clear?
B: No. I brought you to the fat doctor. I actually remember this.
R: I was just about to ask, do you remember being brought . . .
B: Yes! I remember being brought to the fat doctor! I actually don’t know if I knew . . . I think I knew why we were there, but I think I thought we were there because I was tall, versus I was fat, and I remember he was like, ‘Oh, if she ever wants to be a model you’re probably going to need to break her jaw, because her face is extremely asymmetrical’, which has stayed with me FOREVER.
R: Sorry. Sorry, sorry.
B: [laughing] What?
R: What made this doctor . . .
B: Shut. Up.
R: What made this doctor think you might want to be a model?
B: Maybe he saw my pure potential?
R: Do you think you had just read Judy Blume’s Deenie and thought, oh maybe I could be a model.
B: No, I did not. I did not say anything to this guy because I was extremely shy at the time, if you can believe that. I was extremely shy at the time, and Mum brought me in, and Mum was like, ‘Hey’, and he said, ‘If you want to be a model. . .’ I mean, basically what he was saying was, ‘If you want to be a model, break your face and get another face because you’re not about to be a model’, is the reality of this, now that I think about it! Break your face in two and reset it because you’re not about to be a model. And then he goes, ‘I also think your chin . . . looks like you have goitre.’ Which has always led me to extreme neck paranoia . . .
R: Sorry. Can I actually point out, I have had not one, not two but three strangers reach out to me on Instagram Stories and message me directly and say, ‘Hey, I hope you don’t . . .’ and they’ve always been very sensitive. ‘I hope you don’t mind me saying this, I work as a nurse or pharmacist’, I think one of them was even a doctor, and like, ‘I think you might have goitre!’
B: [laughing] I don’t mean to be mean, and I hope you don’t have goitre, but I genuinely don’t have goitre!
R: I fucking don’t have goitre because I immediately went to the doctor and was like, do I have goitre?
B: Rosemary, my neck is definitely a little bit more slender than yours now. Like . . . I don’t have goitre.
R: [gasps]
B: I’m sorry, Rosemary!
R: I mean, I know that’s true but I’ve never heard you admit it.
B: Yes, you have! I hope you don’t have goitre! You have refused to listen to me admitting it. I hope you don’t have goitre. I hope neither one of us has goitre. Anyway, so I needed to get my face broken . . .
R: I think having goitre would be a great excuse for this neck!
B: Anyway, I need to break my face; I have goitre in my neck, but there’s nothing he can do but put me on a low-calorie diet, right? So Mum puts me on a low-calorie diet.
R: I honestly think – I think this doctor was delusional! He may as well have said to you, ‘If she wants to be a jockey, you might want to shave a few inches off!’ WHAT?!
B: I mean, in fairness I think Mum might have potentially . . . She could not always be whipping up dessert straight after dinner, right? Even Don is always horrified by this.
R: She does love to whip up a dessert.
B: Don’s always like [American accent], ‘I need at least two hours between dinner and dessert.’ And Mum’s like, ‘What are you talking about? Bring the dessert on immediately.’ She literally finishes her shepherd’s pie and wants apple crumble right now.
R: She loves to whip up dessert, and right when you’re finished dessert, she likes to make a cup of tea and then produce a slice of cake. My ex-boyfriend used to always be like, ‘What is wrong with your Mum? I’m so stuffed.’
B: So maybe this isn’t just Don! This is the whole world, except . . . We didn’t realise this was not normal because we were led to believe that dinner entailed . . .
R: We were too busy scoffing.
B: That dinner entailed this, plus a pineapple upside down cake, plus an apple crumble.
R: We were like, woohoo! The fifth course, yum! Plus After Eights!
B: This is Mum’s fault! So on it goes and then I go to get my uniform fitted and Frances Mallon, who’s one of my favourite people and actually listening, said, ‘Oh, I loved the podcast!’ Is she going to love this? One of my worst memories ever is when I went in – because she used to have the uniforms for school – and she took Mum aside and whispered something to her. I was like, ‘What’s she whispering? I’m gorgeous?’ No. She was whispering, ‘I have no clothes . . .’
R: If she wants to be a model . . .
B: If she wants to be a model, she’s going to have to go to the big Tom Thumb . . . the big and . . . what’s it called?
R: In Sex and the City, they called it the Big and Tall Whore Store.
B: The Big and Tall. Not the whore . . . No. Rosemary, that’s not what I meant. The Big and Tall Teenage Store, but thanks.
R: I know that’s not what you meant.
B: And so I had to go to the Big and Tall Store which was only open once a month, and get my clothes fitted. It was so upsetting and demeaning.
R: What’s interesting about you saying that you feel like your ideas of your body are kind of cemented in your teenage years, is that, in my teenage years, I feel like my views on my body really changed – my body changed a lot, as well. So when I was in, say, sixth class, I would have been, I think, like, average, or thin – and then when I got to, kind of, maybe second year in secondary school, I suddenly thought I was fat or I felt like I was a lot fatter than my peers.
B: I mean, I hate to be the voice of reality here, but you were super skinny up until about sixth year.
R: I felt like sixth year was a highlight for me!
B: Oh no no, but what I’m saying is, you were super skinny way beyond second year. You were super skinny, you were thin, and skinny all the way up! I perceive you as super body positive . . . When did you . . . because all my life you’ve always been the thin member of the family! You’ve always been super thin, so why did it become an issue for you?
R: I never thought of myself as being super thin. I mean, when I was too young to think about it, I didn’t think about it. And I definitely remember, between the two of us, that I felt like I was the thin one, and you were the fat one – because, and I mean I don’t mean to laugh . . .
B: No, you’re right.
R: You were the one who was on a diet and who was talking about it and thinking about it. And then I think when I got into my teens, I started to talk about it and think about it more, probably as I hit puberty. And I started to put on weight – in a way that was very natural, but to me I was suddenly like, oh my God I’m getting fat. And I joined Weight Watchers and went on my first diet when I was about 14, and had been dieting, on and off. But [sighs] I think, I don’t know, I think when I started weight training, which is such a cliché – when I discovered strength training – it was the first time that I had ever figured out a way to use my body in a way that didn’t embarrass me. Because any time I’d ever tried to do any sport . . . I was actually watching your son diving into the pool today.
B: Oh my God, I literally thought you were about to say you were watching me do something, and my blood ran cold.
R: No, no, no. I was watching your son, who’s nine, Nash, learning to dive today, and how un-selfconscious he was about it. He was so brave, just diving straight in – and diving was always one of the things that made me feel really nervous and I think a big part of it was because I felt like my body wasn’t co-operating with me. Because I felt like it was too cumbersome and too big and even now, if I think about diving, I’m like, no, no, my body’s not for diving. And I think a lot of physical sports that I tried, I felt really self-conscious about what I looked like doing them. And weight training was the first thing that I ever tried that actually being bigger made me better at it.
B: But I mean honestly . . .
R: I think that was when things started to switch in my head, a little bit.
B: Well, even just being a member of Weight Watchers seems to me to be a brave . . . I mean, this sounds ridiculous, right, but you have to acknowledge that you want to lose weight, you want to whatever, right? And I always was super scoffing of Weight Watchers in Ireland, like, I’m not joining that; I’m not going down to the community centre on a Friday afternoon. And the funny thing that I always thought, that’s really ridiculous, is that every time my friends – my friends, not the whole world – would go and join Weight Watchers, and then every time they did the weigh-in, on like a Thursday or a Wednesday, they would immediately go and get the takeaway so they could have their super splurge evening, and then diet for the rest of the week. I would be like, that’s so ridiculous!
R: I used to do the exact same thing. Every single week.
B: Everyone did! So ridiculous. And then when I moved to Paris, I was like, I’ve got to get this weight under control, even though – to your point – when I got to Paris, by the time I got to Paris and by the time I got to Milan, I was much thinner, you know – my weight problem was much more . . . an Irish problem. I mean, a problem I had in Ireland. I took control, went on a diet, blah blah blah. So boring, right? My entire life.
R: But you also love . . . you love a salad! You’re pretty good at eating healthily, especially when it’s hot, I think, much more than I am?
B: I mean, love a salad is very much an exaggeration! Can tolerate a salad. I remember one time I was on the subway with this group of Italian people and one of them was on the phone to her boyfriend, she was like, ‘Oh I’m gonna get home, I’m gonna have’ – I genuinely remember this – ‘I’m gonna have a load of tiny little tomatoes, a load of delicious little asparagini, this chipolini olivini, I can’t wait for my delicious salad!’ And I was like, if I could ever be this person, I would be so happy! And yet I’ve never been that person. But yes. I would not . . . I think I’m more likely to actually skip a meal than to eat a deliciously healthy meal, is probably more likely. But anyway! When I moved to Paris, I joined Weight Watchers with my friend and I remember one day I went along . . . We went on a Saturday morning and I went along. On the way up the road, it was down these little steps, on a tiny little side road, and I was on my way into the meeting and this totally extremely handsome French dude walking along in the opposite direction, walking towards me, and he turns around just as we got to the door, just as I was about to go down the steps towards my diet haven, he goes, ‘Ahaha! Weight Watchers! Ha les fatties!’ And I literally was like, ‘A ha ha ha ha! Fatties! Tous les fatties!’ And threw back my shoulders . . .
R: You treacherous bitch!
B: Oh God entirely, do not trust me ever! I kept walking til I got to the end of the road with my friend, turned around to make sure that this extremely hot dude was gone, and then doubled back.
R: The extremely hot bigot was gone!
B: Exactly! [laughs] Doubled back on myself and ran down the stairs to understand all the tips on how to lose weight. Like, what the hell? But, I mean, if that did not tell me everything I needed to know – like, hey, he does not count you . . . not that all my entire self-perception is based on men, but like, this individual does not count you as one of those people. Or he would not . . . But I mean, I think my entire perception was so skewed by working in fashion, that there was just no talking to me. I probably was – in fact, I look at pictures, I’m like, I was extremely thin! But there was no talking to me. But that’s the thing about it . . . That’s the thing about all of us. We all look back at photos of ourselves and we’re like, ‘Oh we look great! We look thin!’ But you can’t enjoy it in the moment.
R: No. Although I do think that I – I mean, and this is another cliché. Like, now that I’m in my mid-thirties, closer to 40 . . .
B: Fifty . . .
R: Closer to FORTY than thirty, not fifty!
B: Closer to 50 than 10.
R: Closer to 50 than 20!
B: Oh, God. Closer to . . . [laughs] Oh my God! You’re so . . . my sister’s so old! Oh, God, and I can’t do maths! [laughing]
R: You’re closer to 50 than you are to 32, so . . .
B: Oh my God. I’m probably closer to . . . Hold on. I’m closer to 60 than I am to 20. [gasps] That’s alarming.
R: Oh, yeah. Anyway, listen, like that’s hardly the point – we could sit here doing really really poor maths all night. What I was gonna say was, now that I’m in my mid-thirties, I have finally reached . . . Not, like, I try to be body positive in the way I talk about my body and bodies in general, especially online, because I have a kind of relatively big platform, right? But in my own personal opinions of my body, I think I have achieved something a little bit closer to body neutrality. I don’t look at my body in the mirror and go, oh my God that is gorgeous. But I don’t look at myself in the mirror any more and think, ugh. At least not all the time.
B: But do you think . . . It’s a bit like this question about happiness, you know? What’s the real base level for happiness? Like, we’ve been brought up to believe that we should expect to be delighted with everything the whole time. Or have we? Have we? Magazines would lead you to believe your base level, as we said about Goldie Hawn, you know, Goldie Hawn’s base level for happiness is pretty high. Our base level for everything . . . Is pretty high, but like, is that actually realistic? Or are we being tricked? Should we just be like . . . I read the other day that the average person’s IQ is . . . average. Which is going to be shocking to nobody except me, right? I was like, oh! Well, that actually makes sense, right?
R: Did you think it was going to be low or high?
B: No, I just was like, I wonder what the average person’s IQ is? Which perhaps means my IQ is pretty low! But the average person probably looks average. But we are all led to believe that, hey if you use these eyebrow tips and this tip and this tip and use this with your teeth and this with your hair and this with your body, you can be more than . . . Can you be? You can be your best self – and is that . . . Also, what does even “above average” mean, in terms of aesthetics? You know? Should we not all just be like, hey, you can be your best self and your best self is your nicest self? You know what I mean?
R: That is very after-school special of you. I was not expecting that.
B: Oh, really?
R: Well, not that you’re not nice but that was just a very . . . zen positive idea. But you know what, I used to always think that, to your point about happiness, I used to always think that, if I could find a way to achieve happiness, or if not happiness then at least contentedness, in every aspect of my life, then I would stop eating because I was sad or because I was angry or because I was . . . I mean, listen. I can eat because I’m itchy. It literally it’s not even about happy or sad, but if I could reach this elusive state of happiness or contented neutral, that I would automatically lose weight and be a size 10 forever.
B: Yeah yeah, I totally . . .
R: I had it in my head that a size 10 was the default, healthy, happy weight for everyone, when actually as I’ve got older, I’m like, of course that’s not true!
B: So. I thought, with both of us having worked in so many places – you worked in a lot of fashion magazines, and I worked in fashion companies, we probably have a lot of examples between us of how people have commented on bodies, just, positive, negative.
R: Yeah. BUT – before we get into workplaces, I just want to tell you about one Weight Watchers meeting that I went to. I used to go to Weight Watchers on Aungier St, which was in the Whitefriar community centre, and it was amazing, because it was just full of real characters. I used to go with two of my friends and we loved our Weight Watchers leader, Mary, who, actually, to this day – and I’ve seen a good few Weight Watchers leaders – is my absolute favourite. She used to come up with a different story, you know the way they’d do the meeting each week? Like, this week we’re going to talk about calories. This week we’re going to talk about fibre. This week we’re going to talk about fizzy drinks, or whatever, and they’d have a different theme? Do they do that in France and Italy as well?
B: Maybe, but I barely understood them. I actually wish I’d gone to Weight Watchers Mary, she sounds amazing. I just remember the one in France was convinced the whole time that the reason we were overweight was that we mistook hunger for thirst. She, the whole time, would be like, ‘You’re thirsty!’ I’m like, no no, I’m starving. ‘You just need to drink more water!’ No no, I need to eat a sandwich. ‘No no! You’re thirsty!’
R: [laughing] Well, Mary used to start every single meeting with a different anecdote or colourful story – and one week she started telling us, like, she started off with this bit, ‘Now girls. You know how there’s a new celebrity – I’ve heard about the most amazing new celebrity diet, or read about it in Now magazine. Do you want to hear about it? You’ll lose 10 lbs in the first week!’ So we’re all like, ‘Yes Mary!’ And she goes, ‘It’s the most amazing diet. So – you wake up in the morning and you have a small bowl of cold porridge. Right? Small bowl of cold porridge. Then for your lunch? You have a medium bowl of cold porridge! And then for your dinner, guess what you have? You have a large bowl of cold porridge!’
B: It’s the Goldilocks diet!
R: And this one – [laughing] you’re ruining the punchline now! – this one in the front row puts up her hand and goes, ‘Mary, they’re not celebrities Mary – they’re bears!’ [laughing]
B: She’s right!
R: And there was actually another time, oh my God, it was so good, Mary started telling us about how even though bananas are in the Weight Watchers book as a point and a half, not all bananas are created equal.
B: I can’t! I cannot, Rosemary. I cannot!
R: And she took out three bananas of varying sizes, and she held up the first banana [laughing] and she goes, ‘THIS’ – like, so serious – ‘This, girls, is a one-and-a-half point banana.’ And then she picks up another, slightly bigger, banana, at which point myself and Clare started laughing so hard there were tears streaming down our faces. Then a slightly bigger banana and she goes, ‘THIS is a two-and-a-half point banana.’ And then she produces this other banana, like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat, this other banana the size of a fucking wine bottle, she picks it up and she goes, ‘This banana . . . ‘ and another woman in the front row goes, ‘Jesus Mary, that banana must be on steroids!’
B: [laughing]
R: That was a five-point banana, she told us. A five-point banana, can you imagine?
B: You went from a one-and-a-half to a two-and-a-half to a five-point, there was no in between!
R: She must have gone to several supermarkets to find them! It was obscene!
B: Amazing. Actually amazing.
R: It was so good. But sorry – sorry – on to more serious topics. The workplace?
B: Oh yeah, the workplace. But you were gonna tell me – you were gonna tell us – about your experiences in the workplace. Because yours are more . . . Well actually, no, mine are . . . I mean, they’re both pretty personal! Like, I think I’ve observed a lot – I worked in a company once where we did up to a size 14, which is about a size 10-12, maybe UK-Ireland. And I think there was a conversation around, like . . .
R: No no no. No no no. A 14 UK-Ireland is a 10-12 American.
B: Oh, well. Okay. Well . . . 14 then was the max, American. But I mean, you and I know we both disagree about these sizings because like, allegedly there’s a two- to four-size discrepancy but I really think it narrows as you get bigger. Anyway.
R: Allegedly an American 12 is a UK 16, but an American 12 I think is closer to a UK 12-14.
B: Yeah, that’s what I think. A UK 14, right? And it depends where you shop, right? They’re all different. And I remember one place I worked there was a conversation around, you know, a lot of people really want to wear these clothes, but they’re very small. And it was like, ‘I don’t want any at people wearing my clothes. I do not want bigger women wearing these dresses.’ And I was like, wow! You know, at the time . . . This would have been 12 years ago? And, like, I remember at the time being like, that is super unwelcoming and not necessarily . . . But I thought of it more from a business perspective, like, that’s not really broadening your base. But I didn’t give it as . . .
R: Because it’s excluding such a huge portion of shoppers.
B: But I didn’t think of it the way we would think of it now, like, wow that is really inappropriate, you know?
R: That’s WRONG.
B: I thought it was a distasteful attitude, but I also thought it was within the purview of the business owner to have, right? It’s like, if you don’t want to offer that to a broader base, that’s your business prerogative. And now I kind of question that, I’m like, is it your business prerogative? Is it not . . . I’m not sure. Right? I genuinely am not sure. I think it probably is, but there are repercussions for that too, you know? You can choose not to offer it to a broader base, but then you can choose not to be relevant, right? They’re kind of – they’re not different choices, if you know what I mean? But the way it was said wasn’t a . . . I don’t want to be relevant. It was more like, I don’t want to be ugly, was the attitude.
R: Yeah.
B: I was so shocked at the time because I was definitely in that larger grouping. And I just got really shocked, because I literally was sitting there, in this meeting, where it was said, I don’t want to dress you. And I think now I wonder would I say something? I was in a much more junior role, but would I say something now? Yeah. Now I would say something, I would be like . . . But I don’t think it would even be a conversation now, you know? At the time it was . . . It was a conversation. It was a topic. I was shocked, right? But it was not something I was equipped to handle at the time.
R: Yeah. But like, there are definitely loads of brands now – the majority of brands still don’t cater for anything above a size 14. But I agree with you that I doubt that the brand owners or the managers would be saying that in a meeting with several people.
B: But I also think that now I’m at a level where I could say, I disagree. Whether or not people listen to you at that level is a different thing, you know? I think there’s an expectation you’re gonna get to a certain level and people are gonna listen to you. It’s like, no you’re still one of seven. You’re still one of eight. You’re still one of 10, you know? You’re not necessarily – it’s still a democracy. It’s still not necessarily your voice is the leading voice. So you can make your point and you can still be the only voice. Or outvoted. But in this case . . . In this case it was a shock.
R: I remember when I worked at one particular magazine we used to do a naked shoot – I mean, look, I can just say it was Stellar because I think Stellar was the only magazine doing naked shoots, and I remember having a discussion where I was going, I really don’t think we should retouch the images, because I think, if we’re going to do a naked shoot . . . And then I remember having this conversation at a staff meeting, they were going, but if we retouch images of models, and if we retouch all images so that we don’t have, like, so that we’re kind of retouching, like, the wrinkle under somebody’s armpit or we’re retouching so you can’t see the fine hair on someone’s arm, and we’re retouching so that skin looks slightly smoother or maybe slightly brighter, why wouldn’t we also do that for our naked shoot, which happened to be one of the few shoots in a year of the magazine that included diverse bodies. And I remember thinking it was kind of an interesting discussion, because on the one hand, I was going, I think they should be really natural. But then I was like, well then why am I advocating for the, quote-unquote, normal women to be the only ones who don’t get the kind of little magic wand perfection? You know what I mean?
B: It’s funny you say that because actually a photoshoot that I worked on a couple of years ago, was one of the first ones for the company that I was working with, that featured diverse sizes for the models, right? And it had been a massive push to get them there, you know? Like, hey we really need this, it’s a big deal – and by the time we ended up with the models, like, they were very . . . Nobody was massive, you know? It wasn’t like, oh my goodness, this is super shocking! It was more like, oh this girl is maybe a size . . . I’m talking UK 16 versus a size 12, you know? And so this company had been pretty well known for . . . Not well known, but like by the time you got to the photos, it was hard . . . They were very retouched. It was very brightened, because it was supposed to look very happy and very enthusiastic. And the models themselves, all the cellulite had been taken off them – and their waists had been shaped. And it was kind of bizarre because you think about this being a very intentional thing. You read about this, when celebrities say, oh my waist was reshaped and my . . . It seems really malicious, you know? It seems really deliberate. But I actually think it was really just more part of the industry. It was more the expectation, you know? So when I went back and I was like, hey guys, the whole point of hiring this girl who was a bigger girl was for her to be a bigger girl, the real point and there was another girl who was slightly older, but I mean, by older I mean she was 35, she was 40, she had a couple of lines around her eyes and she had some freckles . . .
R: She wasn’t 16.
B: She was very charming, you know? The whole point of hiring these guys was to have their authentic selves shine through. And you kind of glossed over them. Because, like, all the freckles were colour corrected, as they say, in inverted commas. All of the wrinkles around her eyes had been taken out. And they were like, oh! We just assumed . . . It was funny because it occurred to me, you can have a message that’s superficial at an internal level. It’s like, hey we’re going to do this, we’re going to hire these models, we’re going to . . . And everybody’s super gung ho but it doesn’t get to the retouchers, it doesn’t get to the internal teams, that this is what we’re doing. People can be super on board, and by the time it gets out to the bigger audience, it can be really diluted and kind of made more mainstream. And it’s not necessarily always . . .
R: Kind of glossed over.
B: It’s not even always the company’s fault. They had great intentions at the beginning but they didn’t communicate them well, they didn’t . . . And everybody would be like, that’s really not a difficult thing to do! But it kind of is sometimes, and I felt like, in this case, you know, everybody turned around and was like, oh we’ll fix it. And everybody fixed it – but it was kind of interesting to me that every single individual involved, nobody needed to be directed. Nobody was told, Photoshop this thigh. You know, fix these wrinkles. Their expectation was just like, this is our norm of beauty – I need to fix it.
R: Yeah. Whether you’re talking about media or marketing, there is such an expectation of perfection on images of . . . everybody, but particularly women.
B: Yes, but I also think the funny thing is that I don’t think any of these people who were spoken to, who were told . . . None of them would go home and say, about their spouses or their partners, you should be less wrinkly, have more . . . You know? It’s like, it’s just a very artificial . . .
R: But it’s a totally different thing.
B: It’s a very artificial world and how do you start to communicate to people, hey what we’re trying to communicate is a real aesthetic? We’re trying to communicate a real world vibe, and people kind of, who have been, historically in this environment for a long time, struggle to understand, like, what you do in your spare time now, is what we’re trying to get out to the world, whereas before it was like, what you do in your spare time is what we’re trying to avoid getting out in the world.
R: I feel like there used to be an attempt to make more of aspirational . . . almost to separate the aspirational more from the everyday. That you wanted things to be super glossy and super, you know, that’s what I want. Whereas now it’s like we’re almost trying to bring them closer together, and to break down those walls or those veneers between what’s real and what’s in the media, or what’s on Instagram, or what’s in magazines. That’s kind of what we should be trying to do, even though I know that not everybody is. But that’s kind of the idea, you know what I mean? Of representing more reality.
B: But it’s hard, right? I mean, I can speak from the many companies that I’ve worked at, so few . . . Everybody wants to look real, and I’m using inverted commas, quotes in my hands, but they really mean, beautifully real. Unnaturally real. Gloriously real.
R: And that’s kind of my point about the nude imagery when I was at Stellar – that everybody wants to look real but I actually think probably a lot of those women, if they’d posed for those photographs and we hadn’t glossed them up slightly, we hadn’t . . . And like, there wasn’t any major airbrushing done. We very much wanted them to look like themselves. But also to kind of go, if you were that woman, what would you want us to smooth a little bit? What would you want us to . . . what flyaways would you want us to get rid of? Everybody does want to look their quote-unquote best self.
B: But maybe the problem is that, you know, magazines are trying to airbrush Cindy Crawford. And I’m like, don’t airbrush Cindy Crawford, you know? Airbrush me a tiny bit to look remotely close to Cindy Crawford, right? It’s like, she doesn’t need airbrushing. I need the airbrushing! Like, to go one percent more in her direction. She’s grand going one percent more in my direction, right? I genuinely think the expectations are so seriously skewed. One of the companies that I worked at, I remember my boss was obsessed – I mean, this doesn’t even make sense – with people’s kneecaps. She would always be like, ‘Oh, my God, her knees are so extremely fat.’ Every time we had a photoshoot she’d be like, ‘Well Beatrice, I mean it looked okay, but her kneecaps were extremely fat. They looked EX-tremely fat.”
R: I’m literally gazing down at my kneecaps! You should see me.
B: Honestly, she’s given me an amazing . . .
R: I have never thought about the fat on my kneecaps!
B: Oh, I have done nothing since . . . whatever year that was . . . except worry about my kneecaps! I’m like, wow!
R: I was going to say, 1988.
B: I actually went to a doctor because I had back problems – more of that later – and at one point I was like, ‘I’m aware that my legs don’t curve inwards they curl outwards because of whatever in my back, and therefore my kneecaps . . .’ and he was like, ‘It’s very unusual that you’re aware of that.’ And I’m like, ‘mmm-hmm. You have no idea. Literally no idea how much time I have spent worrying about my kneecaps.’ And she used to go off and have her kneecap fat sucked out of her once a season.
R: WHAT?!
B: Yeah. Yeah yeah. It was always there. Her kneecap fat.
R: Oh my God that would be so sore! Your kneecap fat!
B: Genuinely. She was always like, ‘ugh’, about the fit model, ‘ugh, her kneecaps!’
R: I didn’t even know kneecaps were something I had to worry about.
B: And I’d always be like, I mean, I feel like I’ve lost 10lbs, but now I have to worry about my kneecaps. But it’s like women’s magazines, right, every time you think, I’m grand, there’s something else for you to worry about.
R: You know what, though, I’m aware now that we’ve wittered on for a long time but I wanted to ask, on the subject of average looking or average sized women in advertising in marketing, I find that a really difficult hurdle to get over. There’s a lot of ecommerce sites, especially in the US now that I’ve noticed, you can select which model you want to look at. You can say, I want to look at the model who’s 5 ft 7 and a size 16, which would be what I am. And nine times out of 10, when I see the jeans I want on a model who’s 5 ft 7 and a size 16, I think, oh…
B: Well, I have to say you’re obviously a sizeist bitch.
R: But I somehow have it in my head that when I buy these jeans I’m gonna look closer to the size 8 model. Like, obviously it’s just this . . . It’s this really deep conditioning that’s like, it would be more beautiful for your legs to look like size 8 legs than to look like size 16 legs.
B: No, I 100% agree with you. I log on, I see this dress, I think, glorious! I see the dress on the slightly larger girl and I go, oh. And I . . . It’s not that I think, hideous. I think, that dress looks great on her, right? I think, she looks great with that dress. And then I think, hmmm. Do I want to look like that? Like . . . And in a way I think it actually probably prevents a lot more returns, because, I think prior to this . . .
R: If I had been able to see that on Asos, 99% of the things wouldn’t have been ordered.
B: Prior to this, I think I would have ordered the dress, no hesitation. Now I think it gives me an element of caution. I think, hmmm. That’s probably the reality of what I look like – am I okay with that? And a lot of times, I am, I would have to say, with jeans, I’m like, hmmm. I’m not okay with that. I would wonder if that has slowed the sales of jeans for not size 2 models? I genuinely – everything else, dresses, I’m like, oh! Reality strikes, I have to be realistic, that’s what she looks like, that’s what I’m gonna look like. Because, like, prior to this, the clothes would have come, I’d put them on, I’d go, oh my God, I’d be like, let me get somebody else in the room to tell me that I’m joking, and then Don will come in and go, ‘Oh! What is this? You look awful!’ I’m like, what the hell! Literally, okay – thanks. I didn’t need you . . . I told you the other day I bought a jumpsuit, a one-shouldered jumpsuit, and it’s like a jersey . . .
R: A risky move.
B: You approved! It’s a jersey . . .
R: I know, but one-shouldered jumpsuits are always going to be a risk. . .
B: It’s not the one shoulder, it’s the weird saggy material. I put it on, I was like, oh no, this looks like I have a large nappy on. It’s not looking good. A diaper. A large diaper jumpsuit, you know? And I was like, ugh, I can’t. However, if I was this brand, if this had been on a size 14-slash 16, I have to tell you, probably would never have bought it, right? So they don’t have that bigger size model, probably for a reason. I think it’s really tricky because I appreciate that they’re representing but I also, I don’t really want to know what I’m going to look like because I live in a dream of . . . who I really am! You know? It’s hard.
R: But you know what, I think a lot of these conundrums are because these clothes are designed on size 8 fit models, and when you design a garment for somebody who is very slim and, you know, has a certain build or maybe has a more boyish figure, which would be the more typical model, when you size that outfit up, it’s not gonna look the same, or it’s not gonna look . . . comparable on somebody with big tits and, you know, a bigger bum.
B: I would like to think that grading is done in a thoughtful manner, and that all of this is taken into account, and it depends, company by company. But I really just think, the reality is, things look different on different sized people, and we are all accustomed to looking at them on size 6 to 8 or 4 to 6 models. And it’s really shocking to see it on a model who’s not that size! And to go, oh! That’s actually what I’m gonna look like. And the reality is also, it’s actually not what you’re gonna look like. This person is under the most glaring of lights. You’re gonna be, you know, under the most gorgeous of lights . . . In my case.
R: [laughs] You’re gonna be home with a lamp on in the corner, your Spanx . . .
B: You’re gonna be under lockdown. You’re gonna have four limoncello candlelights, dragging your husband into the back garden, where he doesn’t like to go because it’s too hot . . . And he doesn’t even care! It’s just about you. But anyway yeah Rosemary I need you to look at my jumpsuit and tell me if it’s okay. If it is okay we can post a picture of it, if it’s not . . . We can still post a picture of it. But I felt like it was a bit too baggy in the crotch.
R: And listen! If that isn’t a perfect note to end on, I don’t know what is, Beatrice.
B: I agree!
R: Disclaimer that we perhaps should have made at the beginning: we have no conclusions about this.
B: Oh! Absolutely none and zero knowledge whatsoever. However! We do still want to hear your songs and we are planning our own next singalong for you. We’d love to hear what you have to sing with your own sisters –
R: –or siblings. My friend Clare did get in touch to say herself and her brother Niall were going to sing a tune. I think she was joking.
B: I think that’s actually adorable. So any sibling singing!
R: I knew you’d be delighted!
B: Any sibling singing is top notch with us.
R: Top notch? Between that and tot and what was the other one? Toughie? Top notch toughie, totting it up.
B: [laughing] You’re so happy with that!
R: Beatrice, are you still there?
B: Deep breath, as I consider my comeback! So yes, we would love to hear anything that you have to sing with a sibling and we will put it at the end of our next podcast, and then if we hear nothing we’ll have our own song to sing for you, so you’ve been warned.
R: [laughing] And listen: aside from all that – sing if you want – what you really should do is go on to Apple Podcasts, give us five stars and leave a review, because it really helps us feel better about ourselves and helps other people find the podcast. And oh! Oh yeah! If you have any topic suggestions, we’d love those too.
B: We would! We would love any ideas you have. We heard a few, we’re working on them.
R: Oh my God, loads! Dating, dating in Ireland vs dating in America . . .
B: Ex-pat relationships.
R: American politics, another topic we know nothing about but would happily witter on about for half an hour.
B: Oh, happily give you our opinions!
R: Thank you so much for listening! You can get us on Instagram at notwithoutmysister. I’m at rosemarymaccabe with an a in my Mac
B: beatricemaccabe with an a in my Mac!
R: Not Without My Sister is produced by Liam Geraghty. Sound editing and design is by Don Kirkland. Original music is also by Don Kirkland and our original illustration is by Lindsay Neilson.
Liam: Not Without My Sister is a member of The Warren, the home of great Irish podcasts. As is my podcast, Meet Your Maker! You’ll find more great shows at thewarren.ie.
